探訪倫佐·皮亞諾江南布衣杭州總部

孫凌波/S

探訪倫佐·皮亞諾江南布衣杭州總部

孫凌波/S

1 江南布衣杭州總部鳥瞰效果圖（圖片來源：GOA大象設(shè)計）

江南布衣杭州總部1)是倫佐·皮亞諾在中國承接的首個建筑項目。3月26日，在倫佐·皮亞諾赴項目施工現(xiàn)場會議前及現(xiàn)場工作期間，本刊對倫佐·皮亞諾及其合伙人馬克·卡羅爾（Mark Carroll），以及項目業(yè)主杭州江南布衣服飾有限公司總裁李琳、項目中方合作建筑事務所GOA大象設(shè)計總經(jīng)理陸?zhàn)┻M行了簡短的采訪。

WA：您曾說過建筑是關(guān)于探索的。您的建筑通常并不帶有強烈的個人風格，而是會在不同的場地或背景中尋找靈感。杭州是一個歷史悠久的中國城市，擁有幽美的自然景觀，同時和許多其他中國城市一樣有很多新的建設(shè)。這是您的第一個中國項目，您也說過您從不會沒看過地段就接受項目委托。當您來到這個城市和項目基地時得到了哪些設(shè)計上的靈感？這個項目的什么地方吸引您接受了這次委托？

倫佐·皮亞諾：我們的事務所是合伙人的形式，我們已經(jīng)合作了二三十年。這個項目從業(yè)主來到我們那里、接著馬克和另一些同事來到杭州，然后我過來，這樣第一階段大概有6個月的時間。在這段時間我們有很多的交流和討論，收集各種信息，也做了些概念方案。

當你第一次來到杭州的時候，這個城市帶給你的靈感可能來自于它的自然和水景。這里的自然很美。就像從我們現(xiàn)在坐的地方往窗外看，看那面墻上的樹影，你可以體會到建筑與自然的和諧互動。我們在這里看到這種感覺，并且愛上了它。10年前，我們在舊金山的加州科學館中曾做過綠色屋頂，所以我們知道這可以實現(xiàn)，這不僅是為了裝飾，而是有很多實際的功能。于是在這里，我們開始設(shè)想在屋頂上種植茶樹，在保護屋頂?shù)耐瑫r，體現(xiàn)這種建筑與自然互動的感覺，然后就開始咨詢各種顧問并努力把它實現(xiàn)。

通常就是這樣，你的靈感來自于某些地方，然后你把它分享給整個團隊。這就像打乒乓球一樣，不過不是兩個人打，而是30個人。一個設(shè)計的靈感來源從來都不會只有一個，而是來自很多地方。提到中國，你常常想到的可能是光與影、傳統(tǒng)與肌理、輕盈的感覺。所以我們必須從場所和傳統(tǒng)中學習。但同時，我們是當代建筑師，要接受生活在這個時代的種種挑戰(zhàn)，因此，我們要用現(xiàn)在的方式來建造，而不是假裝你還是屬于過去的某個時代。你是屬于未來的。

馬克·卡羅爾：在屋頂種植茶樹就是一個很好的關(guān)于探索的例子。我們最初的設(shè)想可能出于直覺，受到附近種植茶樹的小山啟發(fā)。通過與顧問和業(yè)主的交流，我們發(fā)現(xiàn)這是可以實現(xiàn)的。而且開始你可能覺得這樣種不出很好的茶，但研究后我們知道這不僅可以為建筑遮陰，而且可以種出能夠供飲用的茶。

倫佐·皮亞諾：這只是舉出項目中的一個元素作為例子，還有很多其他的元素。你可能只是從一個很小的想法開始，然后有人說“不可能”，有人說“為什么不”。一個好的團隊里應該沒有人說“不可能”，所有人都說“讓我們試試”。這就是我想說的，我們有非常好的團隊。不僅是指我們自己，還有我們的合作方GOA、業(yè)主，以及建造方，還有來自威尼斯的混凝土施工方來幫助我們做清水混凝土。很多時候人們不喜歡學習，他們總是說“我知道怎么干”。但我們需要人們持有積極的態(tài)度，當所有人都說“讓我們試試”，這就表達了一種樂觀的精神，想要做事情的態(tài)度。這也是整個工作非常重要的一個元素。

WA：相比于其他一些建筑師，您更注重建造和細節(jié)。但中國建筑普遍的建造品質(zhì)比歐美要差一些。您認為您可以確保這個項目的建造品質(zhì)嗎？如果可以，將通過什么方式來實現(xiàn)？

倫佐·皮亞諾：我們關(guān)注細節(jié)是因為這是我們職責的一部分。我們也會關(guān)注光、地段、社會等方面，你要知道如何創(chuàng)造一個讓人們喜歡的場所。一個建筑師必須要把很多事情做好，這其中也包括要做一個好的建造者。不是好的建造者的建筑師，就像不彈琴的鋼琴家，或者不畫畫的畫家。這是你的本職工作，你必須要對細節(jié)感興趣。我們要在上海開幕的展覽名為“漸漸件件”（piece by piece），我們的工作就是這樣一件件做出來的。

但是，建筑師只做好的細節(jié)是不夠的。你必須是為了一個好的項目，出于某種好的原因，才做出好的細節(jié)。你要把很多事情集合到一起。好的細節(jié)是和美相關(guān)的，是和建筑的社會價值相關(guān)的。它從不會只關(guān)于它自己，或只為了顯示你的高明。就像你寫作一樣，不是只有華麗的詞藻就夠了，它必須意味著什么，否則將沒有意義。細節(jié)是整個故事的一部分。我認識的朋友中有一些很好的指揮家，在音樂會的預演中，他們能馬上發(fā)現(xiàn)和指出哪個聲部或哪個演奏者的哪個地方出了問題。這就是細節(jié)，但又不只是細節(jié)，因為音樂是一個整體。所以細節(jié)關(guān)乎整體，一個好的建筑就是由多個部件組合在一起，這就是我們關(guān)注細節(jié)的原因。

對于這個項目是否能做到好的品質(zhì)，我認為是可以的。事情正在變得越來越好，而且我覺得這個國家擁有這樣的精力和欲望去學習。我們在這里和很多人合作，有時他們不知道如何去做，但他們會去學習，而這就是促進整體狀況發(fā)生改變的方式。我們事務所也是這樣進步的，最初也不是現(xiàn)在這個樣子，但是我們一直在學習。要學習，你就必須保持謙虛的態(tài)度，必須不斷地吸收。

馬克·卡羅爾：我想我們開始了一個很好的程序。因為實際上我們不可能一直跟進建造過程，所以我們會要求做樣板。他們會制作建筑各個部分的部件的樣板給我們看。一個部件的樣板可能會做兩三次，直到做好它。然后樣板就成了標準，接下來只要重復制作就可以了。我們希望建筑的每個部件都被很好地制作，然后被多次重復。就像展覽題目“漸漸件件”（piece by piece）：我們設(shè)計部件，然后不斷重復。比如這個項目中立面上的鋁百葉將會重復4000多次，綠色立面上種植植物的部件將有2000多個，都會通過這種方式來制作。因為我們想在這里用清水混凝土，這對建造品質(zhì)要求很高，很困難。我們的業(yè)主非常好，他們接受了邀請意大利建造方來施工的想法。這個意大利的清水混凝土建造方曾為安藤忠雄在意大利的項目工作，也曾和我們在美國金貝爾博物館項目中合作。他們現(xiàn)在正在為杭州這個項目工作。

WA： 您多次提到“學習”，我們的雜志是基于清華大學的，我也想問您一個關(guān)于建筑教育的問題。您出生于一個建造者之家。您曾說過這使您遠離學術(shù)界，遠離那種對年輕學生很危險的創(chuàng)造形式的輕易的快感。據(jù)我所知，也曾有清華大學的學生到您的事務所實習。您如何看待當今的建筑教育？您認為什么是培養(yǎng)青年建筑師最為合適的方式？

倫佐·皮亞諾：我可能很難去談論對于當今建筑教育的看法，但我知道我們正在做什么。我們事務所創(chuàng)立了一小筆基金，這完全由我們自己出資，不是借用他人投資。大概有十七八個來自世界各地的年輕人依靠這筆錢來到我們事務所，他們來自中國、美國、非洲、南美等很多地方。他們會在巴黎或熱那亞的辦公室和我們一起待6個月。在意大利語中有個詞叫“bottega”，意思就是“從實踐中學習”，這是沿用文藝復興時代學習雕塑或繪畫的詞匯。因為有些事情是要從你日復一日的經(jīng)歷中學習的。我們不愿意每天坐下來告訴人們應該去做什么，這些年輕人在大學里已經(jīng)聽得足夠多了。我們請他們來參加討論、共同工作。

建筑是關(guān)于熱情的，但你無法教授熱情，你只能展現(xiàn)熱情。在教育中，你不能總是告訴人們?nèi)プ鲞@做那，你能做的只能是給他們一個樣子。這些年輕人會去看、去學習和吸收。當然，要有所收獲你自己必須足夠好，來我們這里的學生都經(jīng)過挑選，大部分都是很好的。通常在第一個月，他們有些不知所措，然后才開始學習。這就是我想我們應該做并且正在做的。當然，這并不意味著大學不好。大學的學習非常必要，但當你結(jié)束大學學習時，你需要更多。你需要現(xiàn)實，需要熱情，有些時候還要做一些小的抗爭。

還有一件事是要教給年輕人或者應該說展現(xiàn)給年輕人的，就是關(guān)于固執(zhí)和堅持。如果沒有這一點，你無法進步。因為你總是做出一些東西認為還可以，但其實遠遠不夠。你還需要再多做一點，否則你總是無法到達中心，而只是在周邊轉(zhuǎn)圈。我認為這對于年輕人非常重要。你要對他們喊：“垃圾，不夠好，重做！”在大學里往往不這樣，但在現(xiàn)實生活中你不得不小心謹慎。你要不斷嘗試和等待，直到達到最好的那一刻，這種感覺就像到了某一時刻突然鈴聲響起來一樣。要達到這一刻十分不易，這需要時間；也并不偶然，你要付出工作和熱情。

WA: You said that architecture is about exploring. Your works are not with strong sense of personal style, but you prefer to find inspiration from specific place and context. Hangzhou is historic city with beautiful landscape and cultural heritage, and also with many new constructions like other big cities in China. You also said that you never take a new job without visiting the place. What inspiration did you find here when you first visited the site? What make you decide to take this job?

Renzo Piano: Our office is a partnership, we have worked together since 20 to 30 years ago. For this project, Mark and other colleagues came before me, and collected all the necessary information, then we talked and made some work, then I came. But during that first period, that lasted 6 months, with out team coming here and of course the client coming to Genova, we started to collect information and develop some concepts.

And when you come to Hangzhou, one of the urban inspirations is nature and water. The nature here is beautiful. through the window where we are, looking at the shadow on that wall, you realize the relationship between building and nature, they work well together. this was when we saw and we fall in love with it. We built 10 years ago in San Francisco, the California Academy of Sciences, in that building we designed a living roof. So we know it can be done. The living roof mean a lot: it's not just beautiful, it's also functional. So we started to dream about growing tea on the roof to protect the building in this project, then this dream became a reality, and we started to work with the consultant.

You know it's always like that, inspiration come from something, and then you have to express the concept to the team. It's like playing pingpang, not two people but with 30 people, so the ball goes everywhere. Inspiration comes from many places, it is never just one. It's coming from many places. And of course, more general terms China is about texture, light, shadow, and about sense of lightness as well. So you have to learn from the place and from the tradition. We are basically contemporary architects, we accept the challenge of living in our time, so we need to build in our way, I think it's wrong to pretend to belong to the past. We belong to the future.

Mark Carroll: Planting tea on the roofs is a good example of our exploration. It is something that

2 倫佐·皮亞諾和江南布衣總部模型（圖片來源：GOA大象設(shè)計）

came instinctively, looking at the nearby hills with the cultivation of tea plants, then working with our consultant, and discussing with our client, the concept starts becoming a reality. At first you think maybe the tea plants won't make very good tea, but when you start working with the specialist and consultants, you realize that the tea may be useful, to help shade the building, and possibly good to drink.

Renzo Piano: This is just one element. There are so many others, just to make an example. In the beginning we start with a little idea, and then somebody says "impossible", somebody says "why not". A good team is where nobody says "impossible"; everybody says "let's try". This is what I have to say, we have a very good team, not just talking about us, but also GOA, our partners, the client, and the builder. You know somebody is coming from Venice to do the concrete. Sometimes people don't like to learn, they just say I know how to do the job. But we need the positive attitude of people, where everybody says "let's try", it's kind of an optimism, kind of desire to do things. this is also a very important element in our work.

WA: Compared with many other architects, you pay more attention to construction and details. But the construction quality in China is relatively low compared to Europe. Do you think you could ensure the construction quality of this project? If yes, howcould you ensure that?

Renzo Piano: Paying attention to detail is part of our duty. We also give a lot of attention to light, to the value of the site. We also paying a lot of attention to the social side, and how to make place for people to enjoy. An architect must be good enough in doing many things, including being a good builder. An architect that is not a good builder is like a pianist that doesn't play the piano, or like a painter that doesn't paint. So consequently you must be interested in detail. Our exhibition that will open tomorrow in Shanghai is called "piece by piece", so of course we work piece by piece.

But the architect only doing good detail is not enough. You need to do good detail in a good project, for a good reason. You need a number of things to come together. And also, the good detail is about beauty. It is about celebrating the sense of life and the sense of transparency. A good detail is never just by itself, not just to show you are clever. It's the same thing when you write, you don't write for the pleasure to make good phrase, the good phrase must mean something, or otherwise it doesn't matter. So being architect doing just good detail is quite academic in reality. We are working on details because we believe there is a connection between good detail and beauty, and civic value. The detail is just part of the story, it's like a good director, I've been a good friend to many of those people, in the concert hall that do rehearsals, and they could immediately find something that is wrong. It's detail, but it's not just detail, it's about one unite sound. So the detail is about the entirety, it's about a well-made building and the pieces coming together.

Now the second part of the question, is the quality good enough here. Yes I think it will be good. It's getting better and better. And I think this country has the energy and desire to learn. We work with people, sometimes they don't know how to do. But they learn, and this is the way the community changes. This is also the way we became a good office, we were not the same at the beginning, because you learn. You know what, to learn you need to be a bit humble. To learn you have to be able to absorb.

Mark Carroll: I think we have started a good process. Actually we cannot follow the construction process as well as we could in the Europe. therefore, we have developed a process of making mockups. So they make small pieces of the building that we review. Maybe we do that piece two or three times, until we get the right quality. then it becomes the standard, and they just repeat it. We hope that we are making a well built building with pieces that are well made, and we just repeat it many times. That's how we make our buildings, like our exhibition, as you know that it's called "piece by piece". It's a good reason we call that, because we design pieces and then we repeat them over and over. For example, our piece for the facade is made of pressed aluminum, that is repeated over 4000 times. Then we have the green facade, we design the pieces to hold the plants, that piece will be repeated maybe 2000 times. the finish material will be exposed concrete. It has to be very good, and that is difficult. This is the great value about our client, they accepted this idea. We brought a good Italian builder that has made concrete for Tadao Ando in Italy. We worked with him in the United States for the Kimbell museum, and he is here in Hangzhou now.

WA: You come from a family of builders. You said that it was good because it kept you away from academia, from the easy pleasure of creating form, which was dangerous for young students. Our magazine is based on Tsinghua University, as I know some student from Tsinghua University get the opportunity to intern in your office. What do you think about the architectural education today? What is the way you prefer for young architects training?

Renzo Piano: Well, I don't know about what to do about architectural education, I know what we can do. In our office, we created a small foundation. the foundation is made by our money, we don't ask for other people's money. With this money, about 17 to18 young people coming from all over the world, from China, America, Africa, South America, from everywhere. And they stayed with us for 6 month, in our office in Genoa and Paris. In Italian there is a word "bottega", it's a way to learn by doing. It's from the Renaissance, for the people study sculpture or painting. there are things to learn from the day by day experience. We don't like to sit down and to tell people what to do. They got enough in the university. We invite people to come to the meetings and to work in the office.

the work is about passion, but you cannot teach passion, you can only show passion. In education, you cannot keep telling people what to do, the only thing you can do is to give them example. the young students learn by watching and absorbing. Of course to do this you have to be good, and normally those students are good, they were very well selected. Typically for the first month they were lost, and then they started to learn. This is what I think we should do and we are doing. But it doesn't mean that the university is not good. You need the university. But at the end of the university, you need more. You need the reality, you need passion, and you need also a little fighting sometime.

There is one thing you have to teach young people, or I would say showing to young people, is about obstination. Without obstination, you go nowhere, because you do something fine, but it never enough. You need a bit more, without sublime obstination, you never get in the center, but you always get the periphery. I think this is also very important for the young people. You need to tell them "Garbage, it's not good enough, do again!" Sometimes in the university they don't do that. But in the real life you have to be careful. You have to wait, try and try again, and then you could reach that moment like the bell ringing. that is not easy, it takes time, but it's not casual, it's coming from work and passion.

注釋：

1) 江南布衣杭州總部基地位于杭州城西天目山路，地處西湖與西溪之間，包含辦公、美術(shù)館、藝術(shù)中心、秀場及商業(yè)等功能，是一個綜合性的藝術(shù)園區(qū)。 由倫佐·皮亞諾建筑工作室與GOA大象設(shè)計共同設(shè)計完成。倫佐·皮亞諾通過圍合的方式在地塊內(nèi)創(chuàng)造了一個130m×95m的中心廣場，與西班牙馬德里主廣場（Plaza Mayor）尺度相似。同時又對地塊進行切割，創(chuàng)造出廣場與城市之間的連接和滲透，這些切線限定出不同的植被、鏡面水池及下沉廣場等豐富的景觀元素。建筑體量在首層通過內(nèi)退和通透的玻璃以實現(xiàn)懸浮的效果，并在8-9層進行退臺，屋頂作為第五立面將盡可能被茶樹覆蓋，朝向廣場的立面被設(shè)計成特殊的生態(tài)綠化幕墻。倫佐為此反復推敲，創(chuàng)作了特殊的節(jié)點做法，成為項目中最為有趣的元素之一。該項目從意大利引進的清水混凝土施工團隊Dottor Group，花費了將近8倍的代價，意欲打造中國乃至世界領(lǐng)先的清水混凝土。（項目說明文字來源：GOA大象設(shè)計）

WA：請問您出于什么原因選擇邀請倫佐·皮亞諾來設(shè)計這個項目？這是他在中國的第一個項目，之前也有人曾嘗試邀請他來中國做項目但未能成行，您認為他又是出于什么原因接受了這個項目的委托？

李琳：因為我也是一個建筑愛好者，很喜歡在旅行的時候去看建筑。我覺得倫佐的建筑有兩種氣質(zhì)并存。基本上他的每個建筑都有自己的個性，但又有共同的特點——就是都還蠻優(yōu)雅的。我本身也是做設(shè)計的，我覺得我們在審美上的基本趣味還是蠻符合的。比如，他很強調(diào)比例、尺度，以及各種細節(jié)。另外，他具有冒險精神。他在每個項目里都有嘗試新的東西，包括我們這個項目也做很多新的嘗試。他當初在說服我做一些新嘗試的時候說，“我不希望過15年你來找我，說我們當初的野心不夠?！蔽矣X得這兩方面能同時并存，和我們設(shè)計服裝的理念也比較接近，能和他合作我還蠻慶幸的。

他自己和我講過之前他回絕一些來自中國的項目主要有兩個理由：一是因為中國人通常給的時間太短；二是有些項目過于商業(yè)，他不是特別有興趣。他覺得我們這個項目在工期和很多方面的接受度上都比較高。另外可能就是直覺吧，我們見面溝通比較能互相理解，這也是很重要的一個原因。

WA：剛才在工地現(xiàn)場的會議中我也看到他對項目各個方面的品質(zhì)都有比較高的要求，但目前中國建筑總體上的建造品質(zhì)相對歐美要低一些。在您這個項目中如何來解決這樣的差距？作為業(yè)主，從時間和成本上您能接受建筑師提出的這樣比較高的要求嗎？對工程的整體控制是否在您原來設(shè)想的范圍之內(nèi)？

李琳：中國普遍的建造品質(zhì)其實要低很多。這也是我們之前幾年很辛苦的原因。比如，我們一再說要找有這種高品質(zhì)意識的管理團隊和工人，這個要求還是蠻高的。不過我覺得中國也就是這樣在進步的。我們會盡自己最大的努力，有些地方確實也是超出了我當初的設(shè)想，但我希望最后的結(jié)果是值得的。

比如像這個清水混凝土，真是一波幾折。為了達到好的施工品質(zhì)，最后決定50個意大利工人要在這里干1年多的時間。就清水混凝土這部分，我們付出的代價至少是原來的8倍以上。但是一次次試驗看到的東西越來越好，至少將來呈現(xiàn)的應該是中國能看到的最好的清水混凝土吧。

倫佐在我看來是一個非常有智慧的人。他曾經(jīng)說他有世界上最好的客戶，我們交流時會互相問很多問題，我覺得這是一個互相了解的過程。在整個過程里，他不會向你提出要求你必須要怎么樣。他曾說過“固執(zhí)只有在一種時候是好的品質(zhì)，就是當你懂得傾聽的時候”。他第一次和我見面就曾說他是一個“傾聽者”，他說，“我會傾聽，我不傲慢。”但在這個過程中他不斷地呈現(xiàn)很好的東西給你看，就像這個清水混凝土，我最大的毛病就是不能拒絕好東西。那很自然的，大家就往一個方向努力了。

這個項目原來計劃是2017年底完工，但因為要引進意大利施工團隊的原因往后拖了，可能至少要到2018年。不過做完這次我也不打算再做業(yè)主了，這次主要是為了自己的辦公樓。

3 倫佐·皮亞諾在工地現(xiàn)場

WA：剛才在工地現(xiàn)場的會議中我也看到倫佐·皮亞諾對項目很多地方都有超出國內(nèi)通常建造品質(zhì)的比較高的要求，您在這個項目中既是業(yè)主，又是中方的合作建筑師，帶有這樣雙重的身份，您也認同并且接受他提出的這些品質(zhì)上的要求嗎？

陸?zhàn)汉蛡愖艉献?，就意味著在設(shè)計上肯定是以他為主導，也必須給予他完全的信任和支持。我覺得他基本上是現(xiàn)在建筑大師中少數(shù)或者可以說唯一一個還保留著傳統(tǒng)手工技藝的建筑師。這不是說他在追求裝飾性，而是說他把手工的優(yōu)雅一直貫穿在設(shè)計里，很實際地落實到每個細部上。剛才我們工作會議上你也看到了，他在設(shè)計上永遠都是追求完美的。

4 倫佐·皮亞諾與馬克·卡羅爾（右）在現(xiàn)場樣板間

在預算可能的范圍內(nèi)，我們當然希望做到最好。實際上商業(yè)建筑在出售時，不是我們投入越多，就能得到相應的收益。作為業(yè)主，在選擇建筑師時就要想明白你要的是什么。對李總來說，她是為了實現(xiàn)自己的理想或者對城市建筑和空間的愿望，是邀請一個真正的建筑大師來共同打造一個偉大的項目，項目本身對她而言就是一件藝術(shù)作品。作為中方合作方，我們和他們的合作十分緊密、不分你我，為了實現(xiàn)所有的設(shè)計理念，我們的設(shè)計團隊甚至包括施工團隊，做了很多目前國內(nèi)行業(yè)里前所未有的努力和嘗試。

WA：作為中方合作建筑師，在整個建造過程中的具體協(xié)調(diào)溝通工作都是您這里負責，您認為要滿足品質(zhì)上的要求，到目前為止在建造實現(xiàn)過程中哪個方面是最困難的？

陸?zhàn)呵逅炷潦亲罾щy的。因為清水混凝土施工不僅需要獨特的配方，更要對從材料開始到攪拌、支模、澆筑等每一道工序精準的控制，是一個精細活。必須所有工人的水平都很高才能保證大面的效果是好的，但項目同時還有工期要求。我們現(xiàn)場做了好幾次樣板，但要整個項目能控制到這樣的品質(zhì)，是極其困難的。我們現(xiàn)在所有核心筒和大面的實墻都是由Dottor來做，大約有4萬m2；所有梁板是中方總包做，大概10萬m2，意大利工人對中國工人做一些技術(shù)上的指導。

5 倫佐·皮亞諾與李琳（左）在清水混凝土樣板前

所以一開始我對這個決定心存疑慮，因為風險太大。 如果是一個2萬m2的項目，這個決心會容易下得多。當然也有成本上的問題，我們一開始希望少做一點，但最后還是決定完全按照倫佐的設(shè)計來實現(xiàn)。這可能就是所謂大師的氣場，敢于突破規(guī)則和界限?；谒慕?jīng)驗，他當然知道Dottor能把清水混凝土做得非常好，但他也未必有把握整個項目都能做到這個品質(zhì)，因為項目的規(guī)模遠遠超過了他們以前所做過的清水混凝土工程。

其實好的建筑師和差的建筑師差別可能就是在這里，是否能引導和推動所有人去不斷探索和挑戰(zhàn)，并最終達到理想的設(shè)計效果。當然，他也需要好的業(yè)主支持，我相信他也有過不好的經(jīng)驗，所以他在選擇項目和業(yè)主時也非常慎重。

Interview with Renzo Piano and the Project Team of JNBY Headquarters in Hangzhou

UN Lingbo