藤本壯介訪談
——窗的試行

YKK AP株式會社窗研究所 采訪/Interviewed by Window Research Institute，YKK AP Inc.

辛夢瑤 譯/Translated from Japanese by XIN Mengyao

司馬蕾 校/Proofread by SIMA Lei

藤本壯介訪談
——窗的試行

YKK AP株式會社窗研究所 采訪/Interviewed by Window Research Institute，YKK AP Inc.

辛夢瑤 譯/Translated from Japanese by XIN Mengyao

司馬蕾 校/Proofread by SIMA Lei

印象中關(guān)于窗的體驗、勒·柯布西耶的“窗”與瓦楞紙板上的洞

我記得讀大學(xué)四年級時，我用1/50的比例臨摹了勒·柯布西耶的母親之家的平面圖。當(dāng)時是一邊量出各個尺寸，一邊按照自己的理解畫的。那個住宅中，橫向的窗互相連在一起，一口氣橫穿各個房間。一個窗戶就把外面所有的風(fēng)景和內(nèi)部的各種生活銜接、融合到一起，當(dāng)時我覺得很棒。

此外，我去歐洲一些地方時，看到城堡上厚厚的墻壁中被挖出了供向外射擊用的空間，而端頭的部位則開了小窗，我很喜歡那種凹洞里充滿了光線的感覺。當(dāng)時給我留下深刻印象的是，窗不是作為一個單純的物體存在，而是伴隨著某種空間。

然后說說我小時候的記憶吧。那時候我很喜歡鉆到瓦楞紙箱里，還在箱子上挖個洞，然后我就能看見外面了。那個地方既能保護(hù)我，又讓我看到外面的光景，讓我特別開心，那可能就是我自己關(guān)于窗的最初的體驗吧。另外，因為我住的是鄉(xiāng)下，就常常在林子里一邊撥開竹子或小樹一邊玩。我周圍被那些東西保護(hù)起來，但也能同時看見許多別的東西，還會親自開辟自己要走的路。呆在瓦楞紙箱里和在樹林里玩是兩種對立的情形，但卻仿佛都會產(chǎn)生某種本能的快感，或者覺得舒服。

1.2 N住宅/House N（攝影/Photos: Iwan Baan）

“窗”的重疊形成的空間的擴張

我自己的作品中，窗最有特點的是N住宅。窗的重要作用是把內(nèi)部與外部分離或連接起來，而這是定義建筑的最主要因素之一。我當(dāng)時就是想挑戰(zhàn)這個最關(guān)鍵的部分。

N住宅由3個箱體一個套一個形成層疊狀，于是形成了窗外有窗、更外側(cè)還有窗的形式?？傊野汛白龅煤軓氐?，雖然作為物質(zhì)的窗是存在的，但仍稍微超越了那些物質(zhì)性，我試圖從窗與窗之間的空間重疊中創(chuàng)造一種類似“空氣感”i的東西。整個建筑都變得像窗一樣，而窗這樣?xùn)|西本身卻幾乎消失了，全都成了空間本身。當(dāng)建筑建成后我發(fā)現(xiàn)，因為向窗外看去還有窗框，隨著光線變化，兩層箱體之間的空間進(jìn)深也會變得不明朗起來。

當(dāng)人們能清晰地看到墻上的紋理時，他們可以很明確地判斷出距離，而如果光把它照得模模糊糊的，從一個窗到它前面的窗的距離就會變得拿不準(zhǔn)。因此會感覺建筑整體的體積感似乎隨時間而變化。當(dāng)進(jìn)到那個空間里時，我覺得自己對實際大小的感覺一下子不受限制了，建筑似乎在不斷擴大，這讓我特別吃驚。當(dāng)時覺得這個由窗形成的空間整體簡直在躍動，那種感覺比我之前想的還要有趣。

在N住宅里，只有中間那層箱體上的窗裝了玻璃。對于不同體量的箱體，墻厚都一樣的話人會覺得不舒服，因此隨著箱體變小，墻也變薄了。但只有中間那層箱體的窗有明顯的玻璃細(xì)節(jié)的話并不好，于是我們費了好大力氣讓玻璃能整個嵌進(jìn)墻體，形成沒有窗框的窗。不過中間那層箱體上還需要能開啟的窗，我們就設(shè)計了圖紙，制造了能整扇開啟的粗木框窗，并讓紗窗也藏在窗體里面。所以對于這種窗，窗的存在似乎不那么明顯，反倒是嵌在墻上的畫框一樣的木窗框更引人注目了。

漂浮著“窗”的家

NA住宅的結(jié)構(gòu)是5cm寬的特別細(xì)的柱子，而木窗框的進(jìn)深大約為10cm，如果要裝這種窗，窗的存在感會比結(jié)構(gòu)框架還要強。通常意義上來說，這意味著細(xì)節(jié)收拾得不干凈，但這種交接方式反倒讓我覺得很有趣。窗框自由自在地漂浮著，被它們松松垮垮地包裹起來的地方就成了家。某種意義上這是把窗進(jìn)行了象征性的處理，另一種意義上也可以說是處理得很粗糙。通常，空間的輪廓和窗的位置會協(xié)調(diào)一致，但讓它們相互錯開并移動、再形成場所，是一件很有意思的事。

3 藤本壯介/Sou Fujimoto（攝影/Photos: YKK AP株式會社窗研究所/Window Research Institute，YKK AP Inc.）

Experience related to window in wy impression，"windows" in Le Corbusier's works，and a hole in a corrugated board

I remember drawing the site plan of House for Mother by Le Corbusier at a scale of 1/50 in my senior year at college.I did that by measuring the sizes first and then drawing based on my own understanding.The horizontal windows of that house are connected together，crossing through every room of the house.I was amazed by how one window linked up and integrated all the exterior views with the interior life.

Besides，when I go to some places in Europe，I saw those spaces formed by digging in the thick walls of castles used for shooting，and usually a small window was opened at the end.I like the feeling of being full of light in the cave.I was particularly impressed by the fact that instead of merely being an object，the window is accompanied by certain kind of space.

Now I would like to talk about my memory from childhood.At that time，I liked hiding into a box made of corrugated boards and cutting out a hole in the box so that I could see the outside.I felt protected in that space，and could also have a view of the outside at the same time，making me feel really happy.And that could be my very first experience about the window.Besides，since I lived in the countryside，I used to tread aside bamboo or small trees.I was protected by things surrounded，and at the same time I could see a lot of other things and create my own path.Though staying in a corrugated box and playing in the woods are two contrasted activities，both of which brought me some kind of instinctive pleasant sensation or comfortable feeling.

Expansion of space formed by overlapping of "windows"

Among my works，the windows of House N are most distinctive.The function of the window is to separate or connect the exterior and interior space，one of the fundamental elements defning a building.I was trying to challenge this most vital part in that design.

House N is in a stack shape formed by three box constructions one inside another，thus before a window is another window，and another before that one.I was thorough about window，so the windows exist as objects.But it was a bit more than "window as a mere object"，what I considered is a somewhat "air like"ithing created by the overlapping of spaces between window and window.The whole construction is like a window，and the windows almost disappear by becoming space itself.When the construction was completed，I found that because there is a window frame before a window，the spatial depth between two boxes becomes unclear along with the changing lights.

When people can clearly see the texture on the wall，they can make the right judgment about the distance to the wall.But if the light blurs the texture，the distance from one window to another becomes indecisive.When entering that space，I felt unrestricted over the actual sizes of things，and the construction seems constantly expanding，which surprised me to a great extent.At the moment，the whole space created by windows is almost bouncing，even more interesting than I have imagined.

In House N，only the windows in the middle box-shape construction are installed with glasses.To different sizes of box-shape constructions，the same thickness of wall will make people feel uncomfortable，so the wall is thinner and the box smaller.But the effect is not good if the details of the window glass on the middle box are too obvious，so we made great efforts to install the glass delicately without frames.But since we need some openable windows in the central box，we designed a graph and created thick wooden frames in the wall that can be easily opened，with the screen windows hidden inside carefully.As a result，the existence of windows is not so obvious，but the wooden frames in the wall are more eye-catching.

House with floating "windows"

The structure of House NA is formed by 5cmwide pillars，which is quite thin，and the depth of the window frame is about 10 cm if in wood，meaning that if windows are installed，the existence of windows is stronger than that of the structural frame.In a normal sense，it means rough details，but this way of connection makes me feel interested.The window frames foat freely，and the places they loosely wrap up become home.To a certain extent，it is a symbolic disposal of the window； while in other senses，it is rough.Normally，the outline of a space collocates with the positions of windows in a regular pattern； but it is interesting to form a site by mismatching and mixing their positions.

Moreover，since none of the foorboards is large enough to be regarded as the foor，the corner where a floorboard tightly sticks with a window almost forms a window-side space or even an alcove with another foorboard.What I considered was the slight disparity between the quality sensation of each individual site and that of the whole space enclosed by windows.

In House NA，if there are more windows as objects，I think it will be connected with the life scale of home.The size of windows is exactly the size of life.If making the size of windows into one for ordinary life，the thin floorboard would be highlighted，forming a distinctive contrast to the window."Why the window looks so large"，with such a kind of window，an unbelievable relationship will be created between the window and the floor.In addition，in order to make the window with wooden frame more like a window，we used pre-made wooden window frames that were covered with the delicate uneven textures of ordinary frames.Compared with those frames as clean as abstract sculptures，these frames，which may make people blurt out "this is a window"，are a better choice for this project.Our design is only clipping the windowonto the wall，so it was well managed even for the difficult places connecting windows and pillars.As shown in House N and House NA，I'd like to choose totally different methods in the design of window based on different conditions.I think either an appropriate balance or an intentional unbalance is closely related with the architectural experiences.

此外，因為各塊地面都沒有大到能稱作地面的程度，因此地面與窗相交的地方居然形成了一個窗邊空間，如果再有一塊地面的話，就會形成凹室一樣的地方。我當(dāng)時考慮的是，單獨看各個場所時的質(zhì)感能與建筑整體仿佛被窗圍起來的質(zhì)感有微妙的差異。

NA住宅中，如果再多一點作為物質(zhì)存在的窗，我想就能與家的生活尺度銜接起來了。窗的大小，恰恰就是生活尺度的大小吧。假如把窗的尺寸做成通常生活的大小，小尺度的地面就會顯得更為突出，和窗形成鮮明對比。窗和地面之間會出現(xiàn)不可思議的關(guān)系，比如會讓人覺得“窗為什么看起來這么大呢”。此外，為了特意讓木窗框的窗看起來更像窗，我們使用了成品窗，上邊帶有成品木窗框常見的細(xì)碎的凹凸。相比于抽象雕塑一樣的、光潔的窗框，讓人脫口而出“這就是窗呀”的那種，可能在這個建筑中會更好。我們的設(shè)計僅僅是讓窗卡在墻上，窗與柱子的交接處等重要的部分也進(jìn)行了設(shè)計處理。正如在N住宅和NA住宅中體現(xiàn)的，我會根據(jù)具體情況完全改變對窗的處理方式。我認(rèn)為，某種恰當(dāng)?shù)钠胶庖嗷蛴幸鉃橹牟黄胶?、都與會引起怎樣的建筑體驗息息相關(guān)。

4.5 NA住宅/House NA（攝影/Photos: Iwan Baan）

“窗”能限定關(guān)系，故也能制造“預(yù)感”

武藏野美術(shù)大學(xué)圖書館的書架從平面看呈漩渦狀，在某幾圈上開有比通常的窗更大的洞。雖然是個被書架圍起來的地方，卻開了一些洞口，人們會說，“不知道是怎么回事，那個地方好像一直在擴大呢”，圖書館中的世界因此得到了擴張。假如有人在這里因為搞不清全貌而興奮不已地說，“再稍微去那邊看看吧”，我會覺得很好。

也就是說，在未知世界漫步后終于找到想要的書的感覺很有趣，我就采用了與通常的功能性、效率性相反的漩渦狀這種稍微不那么有效率的結(jié)構(gòu)形式。而在這種結(jié)構(gòu)上開很大的洞是非常重要的，人們不知道空間會延伸到哪里，看不到頭，因此腦中預(yù)感的空間大小可能會超越建筑的實際大小。我想，那種感覺應(yīng)該正是建筑體驗中十分重要的一部分吧。

墻壁上開的洞創(chuàng)造出的預(yù)感，正是由物質(zhì)形成的建筑所產(chǎn)生的體驗反而超越了物質(zhì)的范例。從這個意義上看，窗正因為限定了某種關(guān)系，才創(chuàng)造出一種更加寬泛的關(guān)系。讓人透過玻璃清楚地看到一切，或者使人不能看到所有的東西，這兩種窗的使用方式的差異正在于此。

不斷重建建筑的魅力

我們在做建筑設(shè)計時，會根據(jù)想法的不同，有時這樣設(shè)計，有時那樣設(shè)計，因此我每次都會想：“哎，說起來窗到底是什么來著？”原本設(shè)計建筑的時候，我也都想從“說起來建筑到底是什么來著？”這點出發(fā)去思考。就像早上起來后先索性全都忘光、然后說“今天又要從1開始想嗎”的那種樂趣一樣（笑）。在推進(jìn)項目的過程中，建筑中最重要的部分會一一顯現(xiàn)，我們的工作則是將其魅力進(jìn)行重建。于是，“照這種想法設(shè)計下去的話，建筑就和至今為止的不同了吧”，或者“窗也不能叫窗了吧”，不得不這么想的情況很多。我大概也喜歡每次都思考這些吧。

面對多樣的“窗”，確定自己作品的位置

窗具有內(nèi)側(cè)與外側(cè)兩個面，在建筑師看來，這種在里面時能通過窗看外面、在外面時則能與內(nèi)部相連的兩面性是有趣的。但同時，在某種意義上，“窗”還是與歷史無關(guān)的一種存在。也就是說，雖然有各式各樣的窗，但不管讓誰來看，窗就是窗。

在風(fēng)土不同的地區(qū)，窗的樣子也大多不同。因此即便想象得出從前的人如何與窗發(fā)生關(guān)聯(lián)，在當(dāng)代可能也演化為一種不同的形式，或者不同文化的窗之間出現(xiàn)有趣的融合。擁有大量的歷史、文化、風(fēng)土的背景，正是窗的有趣之處吧。我想正因為窗具有某種程度的背景，才能讓人對它產(chǎn)生反應(yīng)，或者感覺到不協(xié)調(diào)之類的。

"Windows" define the relationships，so they also create a sense of "anticipation"

The arrangement of bookshelves in Musashino Art University Library on plan is in a spiral form，and holes larger than regular windows are opened in several circles of this spiral.Though enclosed by bookshelves，there are several openings in the space，and people would say，"I don't know why，but that place seems constantly expanding"，so does the world in library.If someone expresses the excitement that "Let's go and check out again in that place" because he feels unclear about the whole picture of the place，I would be pleased.

In other words，I feel it would be interesting to fnd the book after wondering in an unknown world，so I used the spiral structure，which is considered as not so efficient，compared with functional and efciency orientations.It is very important to open large holes in this type of structure，people would feel unsure where the space extends toward and the space seems endless to them，as a result，the scale they anticipate in the space would probably exceed its actual scale.I believe the feeling should be an essential part of the architectural experience.

Holes in the wall create anticipations，which is a typical example of embodying experience within a construction that otherwise exceeds the actual objects.From this sense，window can define a certain kind of relationship as an object，and thus can generate a broader relationship to a certain extent.In some places，people can see everything through glasses，but in other places，people are unable to see something，I think the difference between these two kinds of places lies in this.

Constantly reproducing the glamour of architecture

The architectures we designed vary extensively based on our different ideas at the time，so each time I would wonder，"so，what exactly is a window？" In fact，at the beginning of designing a building，I would prefer starting with the contemplation of "so，what exactly is architecture？" It is like the interesting feeling of forgetting everything in the morning after waking up，and wondering "so，should I start from 1 again today？"（laugh） During the implementation process of a project，the most important parts of the architecture will emerge one after another，and our work is to reproduce its glamour.Thus，"if I follow this idea，the architecture would be different to other architecture by now，" or "window would be more than so-called window，" this kind of situation would appear more and more.I probably like thinking about this kind of things.

Establish the position of my works before diversified "windows"

A window has two sides，inside and outside；people can see the outside through the window when they are inside the house，and the outside is connected to the inside via the window.This duality is quite interesting to architects.But at the same time，"window" is a kind of existence irrelevant to history.In other words，though there are different kinds of windows，a window is window no matter who sees it.

The appearances of windows change according to local conditions.By imagining how windows were related to people before，，interesting fusion could be made between windows from different cultures in different forms at modern time.The variety of historical，cultural，and custom backgrounds is right the reason why window is interesting.I feel that because of such background，the design of windows may cause peoples' reactions，including a sense of discordance.

For example，it is ok if the window is ordinary，but when three windows overlap with each other，some people would say，"It looks a little odd，doesn't it？" But if it generates a certain kind of meaningful experience，it would be very pleasing，and after allinteresting.Windows as a whole with diversity are particularly interesting.When designing windows，I wouldn't seek for creating "the coolest window"；instead，I prefer the idea that the construction needs certain kind of window，so I made the window.Though similar things were made in history，I am still fond of making a variation.

6 武藏野美術(shù)大學(xué)圖書館/Musashino Art University Library（攝影/Photos: Iwan Baan）

比如，如果是普通的窗也就罷了，三扇窗疊在一起的話，就會有人說“怎么感覺怪怪的呢”。不過如果能因此產(chǎn)生某種有意義的體驗，反倒挺讓人高興的，畢竟很有意思。窗這種東西，還是具有多樣性的窗的整體比較有趣。我自己設(shè)計窗時也不會去追求所謂“最炫酷的窗”，而是如果我在某個建筑中進(jìn)行某種思考的話，就會相應(yīng)產(chǎn)生某種窗的做法，我喜歡的是即便歷史上可能有過類似的東西、但卻又產(chǎn)生了一個變種的方式。

然后那種思考方式下的設(shè)計不斷累積后，未來的人們會想，“以前居然真有過在這種情況下思考這種事的傻子啊，但要是現(xiàn)在也那么干，說不定會挺有意思的”，如果窗的整體能那樣逐漸豐富起來的話就太好了。

空間的理想狀態(tài)與“窗”

7.8 2013年蛇形畫廊/Serpentine Gallery 2013（攝影/Photos: Iwan Baan）

前段時間建成的位于倫敦的蛇形畫廊，雖然幾乎全是半室外的空間，沒有窗也沒有屋頂，卻可以說是達(dá)成了我自己關(guān)于外部與內(nèi)部空間連接方式的某種夢想或者理想狀態(tài)。這一建筑雖然也有像墻一樣的部分，但由于是用很細(xì)的框架做成的，能透過它看見一點前面的地方，而隨著框架漸漸變得稀疏，就能看見更多周圍的綠化，這種構(gòu)造就可以稱之為窗了，但人也可以從中通過。當(dāng)框架又變得密集時，構(gòu)造則又更接近于墻了。這種似乎是由于空氣厚度的差異帶來的感官體驗，讓建筑融入到了周邊的環(huán)境中。而這種可以稱之為內(nèi)外空間的關(guān)聯(lián)方式的東西，與我最開始講的樹林里的體驗挺接近的。

不過也并非全要像那樣激進(jìn)，看起來像窗的窗也很好。我使用成品窗框的時候，會選擇那種真的有成品的感覺的、不炫酷但有窗本來樣子的窗。

最近許多制造商都在滿足構(gòu)件性能的同時，努力把窗框做得更小。那種窗框雖然也有能用到的地方，但要是也能保留一點以前的那種所謂稍微俗一點的鋁制窗框就好了（笑）。我在北海道的醫(yī)療設(shè)施中就全都用了分別訂購的用于普通大樓的有窗框的推拉窗。我想讓那些窗框看起來盡量不像是訂做的，而像是過去看到過的窗被從許多地方帶過來并拼到了一起。

從那種意義上看，正如剛剛說到的，各種歷史性的、文化性的價值觀一直在塑造著窗，這種情況一旦結(jié)束于某種潮流的話就會很可惜。說到以后類似內(nèi)外空間的邊界這樣的東西要如何發(fā)展，我認(rèn)為像蛇形畫廊一樣，建筑能根據(jù)物質(zhì)密度的不同靈活地與周圍環(huán)境融為一體的情況就很好。

然而，這就像N住宅的設(shè)計一樣，在創(chuàng)造了許多窗之后、窗自身卻幾乎消失了一樣，形成由多種進(jìn)深將自身包圍起來的場所。N住宅是混凝土墻建造的，可以說是個普通的盒子。墻上雖然開的也是普通的窗，空間體驗卻非常靈活，伸縮自如，有一種稍微超越了材料或形狀的感覺，很不可思議。要不要在建筑中留下窗的形狀？墻壁是不是一定要設(shè)計成四方形的？建筑的體驗原本就應(yīng)該是自由自在的，這正是N住宅帶給人們的驚喜。從這種意義上看，要說10年、100年后的窗會變成什么樣，也就等于討論10年、100年后建筑會變成什么樣了。□（日文原文由YKK AP 株式會社窗研究所提供。官方網(wǎng)址：http：//madoken.jp/en）

譯注

i 藝術(shù)表現(xiàn)中指通過間接信息使人們感覺其存在的方式，攝影藝術(shù)中指使二維照片看起來仿佛三維一樣立體。

With the accumulation of designs under this concept，people in the future would wonder，"there was actually such an idiot having this idea under that condition，but it is surprisingly interesting using the idea here"，or something like that.It would be great indeed if the whole of windows gets gradually diversifed like that.

The ideal condition of space and "window"

For the Serpentine Gallery completed earlier in London，though almost all the space of the project is semi-outdoor with no windows or roofs，to me，it realizes a dream or reaches an ideal status of the connection mode between exterior and interior space.In other words，though there are walllike structures，they are made of extremely thin framework with relevance to the front.And when the framework gets more scattered，people can see more green surrounded，then it can be called as window now，and people can also go through it.And when the framework is thicker，the structure is more like wall again.This difference originated from thickness of the structure blends the construction into the surrounding environment.The connection mode between the outside and the inside of the project is quite like what I experienced in the woods that I described at the beginning.

But I'm not saying that all the design should make breakthroughs like that，as windows that look like window are also good.When I use pre-made window frames，I would choose those with a feeling of truly finished，not cool but with an authentic appearance of window.

Recently，many manufacturers put efforts of making the window frame smaller with wellfunctional components.Though useful in some cases，it would be good if they store some of those tacky window frames made of aluminum（laugh）.The windows of the medication facilities I designed in Hokkaido are in fact ordinary sliding windows for buildings，which were ordered from different places.I tried to achieve the effect that the window frames do not look like customized，but rather are brought from various places and put together.

In that sense，as I said earlier，diversified historical and cultural views of value are molding the form of windows，and it would be a pity if this ends at some trends.As for how things like boundary between interior and exterior space develop，I think the design like the Serpentine Gallery，in which uneven density realizes a fexible form of boundary between the interior space and the surrounding environment，is a good example.

However，like House N in which windows almost disappear after many windows are created，what I am doing are sites enclosed by various depths.House N is made of concrete walls，and can be described as a regular box.Though regular windows are opened on House N，the spatial experience is fairly fexible and elastic.An incredible feeling that surpasses the materials or forms is thus easily formed.Should the form of windows be reserved in the construction or not？ Must the shape of wall be designed as square？ The architectural experience ought to be free，as the surprises that House N brought to people.In this sense，the discussion of what window would change into after 10 or 100 years is almost equal to the discussion of what architecture would develop into after 10 or 100 years.□（The original Japanese text is provided by Window Research Institute，YKK AP Inc.The ofcial website is http://madoken.jp/en）

Note

i In an artistic representation，it refers to the method of making people feel its existence through indirect information，in photography art，it refers to the skill of making a two-dimensional photo look like threedimensional.

Interview with Sou Fujimoto: The Attempt on Window